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Last night we were intiating a new brother, and it ends up he was Jewish. We were not aware of this until right before the ceremony. Now that is not a problem at all because the only requirement is belief in a diety of your choice. But we did not have a Tanakh in the lodge. We checked out offices and we did have a Koran available, but oddly enough not a Tanakh. So we had to delay the ceremony until a brother could go home and fetch one that he happened to have. The candidate was willing to compromise and use a bible opened to the old testament, but we didn't want to put him in the position to have to make a compromise at all. We want all of our brother to feel comfortable at lodge with the book of sacred law that is SACRED TO THEM on the altar.
After the degree, we took a vote to obtain all 7 of the basic books of sacred laws to keep on hand. I can only think of four of them off the top of my head, The Bible, the Koran, the Tanakh, and the Bagavah Gita. I am unsure what the other three are.
So in your lodge which books are readily available for your non-Christian brothers?
After the degree, we took a vote to obtain all 7 of the basic books of sacred laws to keep on hand. I can only think of four of them off the top of my head, The Bible, the Koran, the Tanakh, and the Bagavah Gita. I am unsure what the other three are.
So in your lodge which books are readily available for your non-Christian brothers?
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Wed, March 12, 2008 - 1:47 PMI believe that we only have the bible. It would be good to look at having some of the others too.
On the upside, you and your Brethren were respectful and corrected things. That is to be commended.
~Steve
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 6:02 AMIn our loge only the Bible. I do now that for people who are into Thelema and the EGC ( Ecclestic Gnostic Church ) The book of the Law is the Holy Book.
Greetings
Erik
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 6:11 AMI recall going to visit anothe lodge in an adjoining district and they had a condidate that took his oath on another book but it wasn't the bible. I did not think to ask and silently hoped tht if such a situation occured in our lodge teh investigating committee would have determined this BEFORE we scheduled the degree.
Kudos to you for trying to resolve this in a timely manner. We ALL learn from our shared mistakes! So Finn do we need to bring this up in our lodge? -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 7:44 AMProbably, but we have to choose which meeting we need to do it in if you know what I mean... :)
~F -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Thu, March 13, 2008 - 9:48 PMStandard Question at our Committee of Inquire is which VSL the Candidate wants to use...
As to the other three books General.. the Veda should be one.. but I will see if I can remember the others... we have no "Proscribed" VSL and if a candidate wanted to take an obligation on the VSL of the Wiccans (what ever it is) we would have not problem with that..
Okay just googled it and got..
"DIFFERENT VOLUMES OF SACRED LAW
Volumes of the Sacred Law in use in the Lodges in the band of countries stretching from the United States to Europe and from from Israel to New Zealand, depending on the religious affiliation of its local members, are:
- The Bible (Old and New Testaments) for the Christians.
- The Torah for the Jews.
- The Dhammapada for the Buddhists.
- The Gita or the Vedas for Hindus.
- The Granth Sahib for Sikhs.
- The Koran for Muslims.
- The Zend Avesta for Parsees and Zoroastrians.
It is important that each VSL should be placed separately and they should not be piled up upon the other. The S. and C. will ordinarily be placed in position on that Book to which the W.M. owes his allegiance, except on Installation Nights when they will be placed on that Book on which the Master Elect will take his Obligation
The candidates for Initiation, Passing and raising will take their Ob. on the Book of their faith.
In some lodges in Germany and Switzerland, a form of VLS was introduced in the 1860's consisting of white (blank) pages only, whereby each candidate can put in these pages whatever he believes in.
In a number of the European Grand Lodges (e.g. Grand Orient of France), where even atheists are admitted, lodges use such a White Book or their book of Masonic Constitutions to obligate their candidates upon.
As a matter of curiosity, it might be interesting to medidate upon the fact that in Ancient Egypt, oaths and solemn obligations were taken on what was regarded by the Ancient Egyptians as the most sacred volume of all : ... the calendar ..."
Source www.themasonictrowel.com/Artic...aw.htm -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Fri, March 14, 2008 - 1:24 AMJust a quick response about the French Freemasonry: if this is the side that takes atheists as candidates, are they not irregular? That is: not recognized by the English Grand East?
Erik -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Fri, March 14, 2008 - 1:28 AM<English Grand East? >
Not sure what that means.. but I guess if there is a Grand Orient that takes atheists - I would be very surprised to find they are recognised by UGLE.. . -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Fri, March 14, 2008 - 9:50 AMThe Blue Lodge of the USA does not reconize the french masonic organizations that takes athiests and women.
Sadly though, there are even states that still do not reconize the Prince Hall lodges. Even sadder still is that there is a need and desire for such a division.
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Sat, March 15, 2008 - 9:00 AMEnglish Grand East? Sorry, couldn't fine the right wordt for the English Lodg.
Erik -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Sat, March 15, 2008 - 7:23 PM<<English Grand East? Sorry, couldn't fine the right wordt for the English Lodg. >>
No problem ! (thinking... ) you're Dutch if memory serves me right ? Yes ? -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Sat, March 15, 2008 - 11:26 PMYes, I am a Brother from the Groot-Oosten der Nederlanden. ( Great East of the Netherlands ).
Erik -
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Sun, March 16, 2008 - 7:45 AMMy Lodge did not even ask about my preference, so I took all my O. on the Bible. It did not "bother" me because I recognize scriptures as scripture. But, my Lodge did NOT have anything other than the Bible, and I really wish I had had the opportunity to take mine on the Vedas. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Sun, March 16, 2008 - 6:04 PMSorry you did not get that opportunity Chandrapada.... hearing of this after one of our Brothers was obligated would make us pretty red faced..
If you ever had to take another - make sure you ask for the Vedas and I would mention this to the Sec of the Lodge if you thought it was right to do so. I would...
Are there other Bros out there that took an Obligation on a VSL that they do not follow ?
How did you feel about it ? Do you think it made a difference ??
If anyone wanted to write a couple of hundred words on this and PM it to me -- I would put it in our Lodge Newsletter which goes far and wide - and I know it is read by MMs,. GL Officers and GMs in other Jurisdictions..
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Sun, March 16, 2008 - 6:16 PMI have visited all over the world and it is a real mixed bag depending on the range of beliefs likely to be found in the area. A good friend's Lodge in DC has the Koran, The Tanakh, Standard "Christian" Bible and one of the Hindo holy books (I don't recall which) on the altar at all times. The book that is Holy to the candidate is the one that is open for him when receiving degrees. In general the standard bible is the one that is open for most general meetings with the others being used from time to time.
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Re: Slight embarrasment in Lodge last night
Mon, March 24, 2008 - 5:38 AMIt is my understanding - and I may be wrong - but that the GL of Israel has the Torah, Bible and Koran on the altar as well.
~Steve
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